I made this quote, by Eugene Debs, available to some of my brothers and this is the discussion that ensued......
what do you think??
Here we go-
(a brother) ".......bet that line got him some chicks because there are some chicks who dig that idealistic stuff. However, who would he have organized to throw on Hitler? Or was Hitler just another citizen of the world.
It is easy to make quotes like that when you are a free rider on the dudes who have taken care of the bad guys an established a society based on law and order. If someone currently tried to make a statement like that in a middle eastern country, they would be dead. Thank god for the USA where studs like George Washington, John Adams, and Thomas Jefferson established a land where guys like Eugene Debs can shoot their mouths off and still get laid.
Debs did get rad in the Pullman strike so I will give him some props for that. Once he established the International Workers of the World, however, I don't think he did much good for working people. He just started making a bunch of statements about how great Socialism would be which had no basis in reality.
(me) I'll play with you here Bru.
As a citizen of the world, I'm not saying I am not aware nor uncaring of the hitlers out there and I would surely be vocal and proactive in helping to put down wrong doing.
I am just not high on nationalism. I can't look at Hitler and say yeah USA , yeah Britain!!
The same or even More suspect and covert wrongs have been done by the great USA. I'm just in the middle where ill look at every situation with a broad eye, not an American eye or French eye etc.
I'm not going to advocate a Zapatista rebellion put down so a neo-liberal market can function, so as to make America strong and some of Mexico strong while sweeping aside a segment of Mexican society who do not add value to the world market.
Seems maybe you're subscribing to the idealism of nationalism based on the good deeds done.
Me, I'm still thinking of many perspectives. Do I appreciate my freedoms? Of course. But still doesn't let me blanket the actions of strong nations as being superior, moral or all that great by default.
(a brother) I am going to beg differ with you on Hitler .... I can look at the situation and definitely cheer for the USA and Britain. Without the nationalism of these two countries, there wouldn't be any citizens of the world .... just of bunch of fools living under an imperialist dictator.
Now, I am not big on nationalism either. However, you have to choose your side at some point. I can't be a "citizen of the world" on every issue. You might as well resurrect Sadam Hussein to come back and take over the world if that is your perspective. If dudes don't bind together and protect their shit, they are going to get their shit fucked up. Borders have to be draw and people have to bind together because we can't all be "citizens of world" and make decisions without borders. For right or wrong, I draw my borders at the USA. Now that Obama is running the show, I am feeling a lot better about my "clan" and the decisions that are being made.
I still put the same question to the "citizens of the world," .... can you go to Iran right now and be a "citizen of the world"? ... can you take a trek across Africa and be a "citizen of the world"? .... where are the only places you can stand up and declare you are a "citizen of the world" and not get thrown in prison? ... as far as I know it is the economically advanced democratic nations. And, without the wars fought by the advanced democratic nations, you would never get to declare you are a "citizen of the world." Thus, Debs statement is fucked.
(me) I don't know bru, the saddam statement is a little extreme and your last sentence said to me, " choose... you're either with us or you're against us."
You've made your decision about liking your "clan" I'm not loyal to the clan for clan sake.
I'll charge into the dying of the light, if I feel need be.
I also think there more places than not I can walk freely in more places than not on this earth, yet surely I would be safe if I did not say I was representing the "clan.
(a brother) I never said I "liked" my clan. My clan has had some tremendously good moments (like George Washington not becoming a dictator after the Revolutionary War and taking down Hitler and the Japanese Emporer in WWII) and some very bad moments (like Vietnam, Iraq, and all the wrongdoings done by international corporations). I am just saying that without this clan, the "citizens of the world" wouldn't be able to mouth off and say how fucked everything is and how pure their integrity is. So, I am not a "you are either with us or against us" guy, I am just calling bullshit on bullshit. I am all for the "citizens of the world" enjoying life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness the same way I do. However, when these "citizens" start acting up a bit, I preserve my right to talk shit and hopefully rain on their parade a bit. Just because the "citizens of the world" say a bunch of words that are pure and sound beautiful doesn't mean they have any real world application.
( a different brother) Saying you are a citizen of the world is kind of saying you can take things from all cultures without having any responsibility to any one culture. Take what you want from a certain society and move on. Like a parasite.
I agree with having a little of that thinking but like (deleted) said it is not really helping to protect anyone or fight for the causes of society.
(me)... you might mean to learn and appreciate other cultures.. so to understand where they're coming from etc... Taking what where?
helping to protect as opposed to exploit or rape for financial gain under the banner of freedom?
You guys seem to be caught up in philosophies based on taking, policing...
We tried our best with expansionism, manifest destiny, slavery, imperialism.....
That doesn't seem so sustainable to me in this day and age.
And I think you are mis-construing. I don't understand why your thinking involves having freewheel burning of humans walking the earth.
The point is to change mindset, to think about other cultures, think as a collective. I guarantee you, your president obama is leaning toward citizinery of the world vs what he inherited."